Ep3: Collective Climate Action with Crystal Chissell
“I’m motivated by love, compassion, kindness and cooperation. I don’t think I’m unique in that and I think that we see that throughout our lives and the people we know in the groups that we’re a part of.”
Today, we feature Crystal Chissell, a multidisciplinary climate action leader and senior member at Project Drawdown. In this conversation, she speaks to Flourish Systems Change about co-solutioning for a climate-resilient future through education, collaboration, and communities, and how, sometimes, knowing where our motivations lie might just help to scale our efforts for climate action.
Crystal Chissell is Senior Director of the Communities program at Project Drawdown. She has a multidisciplinary background in law, environmental science, business, and nonprofit stewardship. She has close to two decades of experience advising elected and appointed state and municipal officials in a range of subject areas, including solutions to environmental problems.
Show notes
Sarah and Michael’s book, Flourish: Design Paradigms for Our Planetary Emergency is now available at Triarchy Press.
Drawdown Communities launched in June 2021 to produce informational programming and guides to empower local constituencies in communities across the United States for today’s climate work.
Drawdown, The Book released in the spring of 2017 is a seminal text on climate solutions that can begin to reverse the buildup of atmospheric carbon by the mid-century. The book is available at bookshop.org.
To read more on maximising agency, please refer to Chapter 1 of Flourish, titled ‘Possibilism: evidence, uncertainty and agency.’
The introductory passage from Drawdown, The Book is as follows:
"Much of the rhetoric and writing about climate change is violent: the war on carbon, the fight against global warming, and frontline battles against fossil fuels. Articles refer to slashing emissions as if we had machetes. We understand the use of these terms because they convey the gravity of what we face and the tightening window of time to address global warming. Yet, terms such as ‘combat,’ ‘battle,’ and ‘crusade’ imply that climate change is the enemy and it needs to be slain….The goal is to come into alignment with the impact we are having on climate by addressing the human causes of global warming and bringing carbon back home."
Watch the launch event for “A Message from the Future II: The Years of Repair”, featuring Nnimmo Bassey, Narrator; Naomi Klein, Executive Producer; Opal Tometi, Writer and Narrator; and Emma Thompson, Narrator. The hand drawn animations by Molly Crabapple in the short film, posted and supported by The Intercept for a fundraising event.
You can download a copy of Project Drawdown’s latest packaged analysis and insights at The Drawdown Review.
Drawdown’s Climate Solutions at Work is an employee-focused guide published by Drawdown Labs that mentions specific job functions with enormous untapped potential to drive climate action, and whether their company is taking adequate steps to address the climate crisis.
Watch Drawdown’s Climate Solutions 101 video series for an overview of global climate solutions by international experts.
Read more about podcast sponsor Interface’s “Mission Zero” programme.
Transcript
Episode 3 : Collective Climate Action : 33 minutes
Sarah Ichioka 00:03
Hello and welcome to the Flourish Podcast where we discuss design for systems change. I'm Sarah Ichioka. I'm an urbanist strategist and director of Desire Lines based in Singapore. I'm delighted to co-present Flourish with Michael Pawlyn, who is the founder of Exploration Architecture, and a leading architect in regenerative design based in London.
Our guest today is Crystal Chissell. Crystal is senior director of the new initiative Drawdown Communities where she leads efforts to produce informational programming and guides that support local collective climate action. These efforts will focus on scaling adoption of project drawdown solutions in a way that values the well being of all people and nature.
Since joining Project Drawdown in 2015, Crystal has held a wide variety of responsibilities and she is a senior leader in the organization. She helped to build and support Project Drawdown’s Flagship Research Fellowship Program, guided the organization through its initial phases as a startup and led operations finance human resources, technology, grant management, management of the organization's brand, and to top it off, served as in-house legal counsel. We are so honored to have her on the show. Crystal, welcome to Flourish.
Crystal Chissell 01:53
Thank you so much, Sarah.
Sarah Ichioka 01:54
To kick things off for our listeners who may not be familiar with Project Drawdown yet, what sets it apart from other organizations dealing with climate?
Crystal Chissell 02:05
Okay, sure, Well, one thing that sets this Project Drawdown apart is that we're entirely focused on solutions to global warming and climate change. So when the organization was founded in 2014, the aim of it was to answer this question of whether ‘drawdown’ is possible, using existing solutions that are already on hand, so, ‘drawdown’ – we define as the point in time when concentrations of greenhouse gases in Earth's atmosphere begin to decline year to year. So our organization set out to answer this question of whether drawdown is possible over a 30-year period by gathering data and science. To give an evidence-based approach to answering this question, we brought on a team of researchers and analysts who have worked since 2015 to gather the data and do predictive modeling on this question. The initial results of our research study were published in the book ‘Drawdown’ and our team has continued to update those results, and have published those as well, most recently in a publication called the Drawdown Review, which is available for free download from our website.
Sarah Ichioka 03:45
Excellent, and we’ll be sure to put the link for that in our show notes. My ‘Flourish’ co-author and co-host Michael Pawlyn would have absolutely loved to be with us in this conversation, but it's a little bit tricky to schedule timings between California where you are; Singapore where I am; and London where he's asleep right now, but he shared a couple of questions that he wants us to be sure to discuss, and one of them relates to the fact that you've been involved with Drawdown almost since the beginning of its life; and looking through the list of people involved in Drawdown, there are many, many of them, and some very impressive names as well. Michael wanted to ask, were there any problems managing this cast of hundreds and the all-stars within it?
Crystal Chissell 04:32
Well, no, I wouldn't say there were problems. I think what made this a successful collaborative effort was just the intention that it be collaborative and not hierarchical, but that it draw from a broad range of minds around the world and brought all these people together with the common goal of addressing climate change. So I think with those intentions, that's what made it be successful.
Sarah Ichioka 05:07
Could you share more about your work with the new Drawdown Communities initiative?
Crystal Chissell 05:14
Sure, so this is a new initiative, really just now under development, but the aim of it is really to fill what we see as a resource gap. So we wanted to provide a resource for people who want to take action on climate solutions but don't know where to begin, and also people who want to work together collaboratively – so, not just individuals in their own households, but communities of people who want to take action together. And so we wanted to provide some information specific to the drawdown solutions that we've analyzed and just provide some information about those solutions and what are some ways to implement them or support their implementation; support broader adoption of them. We noticed that there's quite a bit of information out in the public if you do Internet searches on individual action on climate solutions but we wanted to go just a bit beyond that to highlight how people can work together to scale solutions. Well, we also wanted to focus specifically on the drawdown solutions’ technologies and practices that actually have an impact on levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. So for people who are concerned specifically about global warming and climate change, and want their action to be focused on mitigating emissions of climate– of greenhouse gases or drawing down of greenhouse gases via natural processes. We wanted to focus on how to accelerate adoption of those specific solutions; distinguishing those from other very valuable environmental efforts and we wanted to make those distinctions because sometimes those other types of environmental action are conflated with climate actions.
Sarah Ichioka 07:39
That's fascinating. Could you share a specific example of an environmental action that might be commonly misconstrued with climate action that you're looking to correct perceptions on?
Crystal Chissell 07:53
Here's a common example, like people not using plastic straws. So that's a very, very worthy goal: reducing the use of plastic straws, reducing harm to marine life via plastic straws, but it's not very impactful in terms of climate change. So not to say that it's not a valuable effort and worth the effort, but we just want to make the distinction for people who are also interested in affecting greenhouse gases.
Sarah Ichioka 08:30
And thanks for sharing that. I mean, interestingly as a side note, that's not even the most effective way to implement change within trying to reduce our reliance on single-use plastics, right? Advocacy that works upstream, larger volume products is actually the more effective way, but I always find it so interesting to think what captivates the public imagination and then motivates people to action and then, how we can redirect that to what's most effective. I'm interested, you know, in our book, Michael and I write a lot about exhorting readers to maximize their own agency, but to do that in collaboration with others. So your work in communities really, really resonates with that idea. Can you share more about: how are you defining community, do you mean that in a traditional geographic sense, or is it communities of interest that might find each other?
Crystal Chissell 09:33
We're defining it broadly so it would encompass both geographical areas as well as communities of interest. Any groups of people who are together for any reason we see as a target audience for this resource of our building. So part of the thinking behind that is that, you know, people are part of groups for whatever reason, often for reasons that are motivated by things that they care about and so these are ready-made relationships that are a really good starting place for climate action. This is our hypothesis. So that's why we define community broadly. What we've found over the years is that many people have engaged with our work with the book ‘Drawdown’ or some of our other resources. This has been their introduction to climate solutions, and that people who have studied this material together then want to act together on climate solutions. So we wanted to provide a resource for people who engaged with our work that way as well as hope to reach new audiences of people who are already together in groups. I think it will help build community for adaptation, for resilience, and for dealing with the challenges that climate change is bringing.
Sarah Ichioka 11:12
Which of the Drawdown solutions do you feel are most appropriate for this segment of actors to tackle? What are one or two that you feel are most appropriate for communities of individuals to take on?
Crystal Chissell 11:30
Well, that is a difficult question to answer because every community will be different, so there'll be different geographic areas, different resources at their disposal, different levels of expertise and each of the solutions has specific circumstances under which it's most easily scaled, or under which adoption of the solution best happens. So it's going to be very specific to the community and part of the resource that we are hoping to develop will help to guide communities in determining where to take action, and what might have the greatest impact, or where their interest lies, and where their interest matches their agency or capability.
Sarah Ichioka 12:24
I'd really love to talk more about motivations for action and kind of the context that we're in right now. So we're recording our conversation just about a week after COP26 closed, and I think for a lot of observers, the outcomes of the talks are interpreted as we're not really able to rely on national elected leaders to save us from the climate crisis. So it's really important that we rally local levels to continue to do the work in this state of crisis and the need to act. What's the best messaging that you're using to reach out to communities that you think will tap into motivations that resonate with your average person?
Crystal Chissell 13:21
That's a little bit looking ahead since we're still developing this resource, but I think it's really important to meet people where they are and where they feel most connected, where their caring is the greatest. And so I think that's one aspect of it and then another is just to hopefully provide ways to educate people about what solutions are available, and how these climate solutions might also address other problems that they face in the community. So these are the things that we're looking at and hoping to amplify. I think that there's many ways to motivate people to act when we're looking at motivations. I think it's difficult to make a blanket statement about all of humanity, but I know this is true–
Sarah Ichioka 14:27
Really? [Laughter]
Crystal Chissell 14:32
But I know this is– [Laughter]
Sarah Ichioka 14:33
Why would you say that? [Laughter]
Crystal Chissell 14:35
Well I would say that because I think that often, you know, there is this mindset that there's one way for people to approach the problem and that it's to scare people and make them aware of, you know, the horror that is coming, and you know, a scare tactic and inviting people to panic. I think that is a very prevalent message that's out there. But I also observe, and my own personal experience is that I'm not motivated by fear and panic. I'm motivated by love, compassion, kindness, cooperation. I don't think I'm unique in that, and I think that we see that you know, throughout our lives and the people we know and the groups that were part of that there are more positive motivations that inspire people to act. You know, many, many people are inspired to act because they have children and they want to see a great future for their children. So I think it's really important to look at where our actual motivations lie and also to, you know, seek our motivation from the things that inspire us. We don't have to find inspiration in the problem itself. I think that we can find inspiration in other areas of our lives and bring that energy to our climate action.
Sarah Ichioka 16:04
I really love that, and it reminds me of, in one of your introductory sections to the original ’Drawdown’ book. When you're defining terms, you specifically say we're avoiding wartime. Yes metaphors, and I think that our choice of metaphor actually does frame the way in which we act. What you were saying reminded me of a previous interview that you gave when you were sharing the top actions that individuals could take to address climate change and I thought it was so beautiful that you talked about the importance of connecting with our hearts and with our good intentions. Are there examples you can offer from maybe the previous iterations of Project Drawdown where you could see the shift in mindset happening first-hand, you know, moving from despair and disaster narrative, across to a positive solutions narrative, what does that look like in the moment?
Crystal Chissell 17:16
I think in the moment it just looks like relief, and you know, people who are able to engage. So we've just received a tremendous amount of feedback and gratitude for a different presentation of the issue and a solutions-based approach. Many people are quite grateful that they can focus on something other than the problem, you know, focus on ways to solve the problem and you know, the possibility of them having an impact and having ways that they can contribute to solutions .So I think it can actually shift, in a moment, many people are just wired to, you know, to connect with something that's more positive as a motivation.
Sarah Ichioka 18:13
Absolutely. I really loved the approach that has been taken by the series of films that Naomi Klein and collaborators like Nnimmo Bassey have produced, where they're looking forward to building a regenerative future. Have you seen these online – these beautiful hand drawn animations? I can send you the link after and I can put the link on the show notes, but they're making exactly this point that — they're crafting this narrative of what a regenerated culture can look like and actually pointing out that in many, many ways it's better than the one we have right now. It's not necessarily just a narrative of all these things. We're going to have to give up, but also all the things that there are to gain and so it resonates with that.
Crystal Chissell 19:09
I think that message and that way of thinking is gaining ground now, and so I'm hopeful about that — this shift, and how we approach the problem.
Sarah Ichioka 19:21
Now I have another question from Michael. In our book, we talk about the importance of understanding the complexity of natural systems–so focus on ‘complexity’. How do you and your colleagues encourage people who use drawdown ideas to think systemically, and see synergies between ideas rather than say applying them in isolation, more like a tick box approach?
Crystal Chissell 19:47
I think we've tried to do that with our Drawdown framework where we connect the solutions to sources of emissions, but in broad categories such as in the energy sector, just looking at shifting to alternative means of production of electricity and another broad category of increasing efficiencies, that sort of thing. So, but I think that we could actually do a better job of making that point in our modeling that our team has done, there's a full integration of all of the sectors of solutions … which is a complex model, but I think that our messaging could be emphasizing that point much more. So, I just want to point out that the solutions that are included in the Project Drawdown analysis do not represent every single climate solution existing in the world. There are specific criteria for the solutions that are included. We only include solutions that are currently available so there's no theoretical solutions, nothing that's still under development that's not yet proven. It's all existing solutions that are available and in use in the world. All of those solutions are also proven to be financially viable according to our modeling. They all have a proven potential to reduce greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and for each of them, there's sufficient data available to be able to run this statistical analysis model of the solution. There's many actions, systemic approaches, frameworks, and philosophies that will contribute greatly to solutions to climate change but we have focused very specifically in this analysis.
Sarah Ichioka 22:02
One of the things I really appreciated about the initial publication was the way that it broadened out the perspective of what is a climate solution from solar panels and wind turbines and insulating our buildings, through to much more holistic solutions, right? I mean the point that is raised that women's access to healthcare and education has a huge impact on our ability to address climate change. Would you share a little bit more on that specific example? Why is that the case?
Crystal Chissell 22:42
One of our solutions is health and education solution, which is specifically about quality education for all, and specifically, girls, as well as access to sexual and reproductive healthcare and rights. Both this education and healthcare are human rights and stand so on their own are important just by virtue of them being human rights, but they also do have a connection to climate change. So people who are children who are afforded quality education and particularly, girls, are much more equipped to deal with the effects of climate change to think about and implement solutions, and to be more resilient in the face of the effects of climate change. So it's a very important adaptation factor as well.
Sarah Ichioka 23:47
And how would in the context of Drawdown Communities? For example, how would participants engage with that particular solution directly?
Crystal Chissell 23:56
Well, a great way is to just look at your community and whether everyone has equal access to quality education and resources. So, for instance, people who are in communities that are adjacent to communities with less resources can look at ways to make sure that underfunded educational districts have access to the resources that they have. Beyond that, people out in the US can look towards supporting organizations that are providing or supporting quality education for children everywhere.
Sarah Ichioka 24:42
So moving from an interdisciplinary approach to problems to your own bio, which is tremendously impressive. You hold multiple graduate degrees in law, business and environmental science, and you've even been an elected official. How do you feel that your interdisciplinary background and your diverse professional experience before 2015 inform the way that you approach your work at Project Drawdown?
Crystal Chissell 25:17
I think it's helped me take more of a systems look at things to see the limitations of narrow approaches. It's enabled me to respect a broad range of expertise and perspectives. I think it's made me much more collaborative and seen the value of collaboration, and has in my mind de-emphasized the importance of hierarchy and loaned experts or loaned thought leaders, so I think that that's the biggest benefit is that it's allowed me to see, to understand systems approaches better.
Sarah Ichioka 26:02
And what are you excited about doing next?
Crystal Chissell 26:06
Well, I am excited about the communities program that we're building out and to working more with groups of people communities out there. We're initially focusing on the United States simply because the US is the largest emitter historically, and so we see it as a fitting place to accelerate action. So I'm really excited about just surfacing insights from communities who have already begun to engage on climate action, surfacing what insights they've gained that can help other communities beginning to take action and also just seeing what sorts of innovation arises from the grassroots and addressing both climate change and systemic contributors to climate change. So, I know that there's a great deal of emphasis on looking toward the top level leadership, such as at the COP, but I think it's going to be very fascinating to see what sort of innovation is arising from the grassroots and I'm also excited and curious to see whether to what extent people around the world are going to turn to indigenous wisdom and expertise in addressing some of the systemic problems that we're facing.
Sarah Ichioka 27:40
That sounds really exciting – it sounds like first in the US but globally as well. How can our listeners engage with Drawdown’s work?
Crystal Chissell 27:51
Well, I think Drawdown’s work is primarily educational so I would say to visit our website at Drawdown.org, where we have many resources for just learning about the landscape of climate solutions. So there's our framework, which is kind of a way to organize the broad spectrum of climate solutions as well as information about each of the solutions that we feature. There are a number of publications that are available there, The Drawdown Review, and other specific publications like our Drawdown Solutions at Work, which is a guide for action in the workplace. We also have the Solutions 101 video series, which is sort of a short course that gives an overview of climate solutions, and that is broken into a number of 15-minute videos and that is a really great place to start for education about climate solutions.
Sarah Ichioka 28:57
Crystal, it has been such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you for sharing your time and insights with us, and wishing you all the best and looking forward with excitement to what you're going to achieve with your growing team on Drawdown Communities.
Crystal Chissell 29:13
Thank you so much, Sarah.
Sarah Ichioka 29:20
One of the things that really struck me about Crystal's interview was this description of a positive shift towards action rather than stagnating in our concerns and anxieties about the problem that we can actually step into our power in a really positive way. The way she described how that reframing made the climate challenge that I've seen, something that people felt much more excited about engaging with.
Michael Pawlyn 29:51
Yeah, it's so much more energizing isn't it than, than some of the approaches. And, you know, for me, what came across really strongly in the interview is just how many solutions there are that could be implemented right now and it involves far more than just technological solutions, which in itself is a really useful counter argument to those who like to argue that tackling climate breakdown is all about technology.
Sarah Ichioka 30:13
And it helps me to understand better how Drawdown has taken that approach to understand what an interdisciplinary team that they have and the fact that they're working in a sort of network structure, I somehow felt that there were, there seemed to be this parallel between the way that they run their organization, like non-monolithic – Crystal was saying they're very anti having one thought leader out in front, the fact that she and her teammates have such diverse professional trainings and backgrounds, somehow, it seems to me that structure kind of underpins and supports this whole philosophy that you described, Michael. There's so many multifaceted solutions.
Michael Pawlyn 30:58
Yeah. And it's a hugely impressive piece of work. You know, it's not straightforward, bringing together all those brilliant minds. And, you know, they've done a great job, and also using rigorous evidence-based thinking to work out which are the most important solutions to focus on. And if we let the billionaires dominate the debate, we would almost certainly end up with some really skewed priorities. So they you know, they've, they've done a fantastic service, I think.
Sarah Ichioka 31:24
And we're all looking forward to seeing how we can engage with the work that Crystal will be leading on Drawdown Communities.
Michael Pawlyn 31:31
Yeah, it's gonna be fascinating to see how it develops.
Sarah Ichioka 31:42
If you're interested to learn more about principles of regenerative design, or any of the many fascinating topics that we've been discussing together today, you're warmly invited to visit our website, which is simply: www.flourish-book.com. And we'll also have a link to subscribe to our website there as well. That website will also include links to all of our socials. The podcast is sponsored by Interface, and based on the book, Flourish: Design Paradigms For Our Planetary Emergency by Sarah Ichioka and Michael Pawlyn.
Michael Pawlyn 32:20
Our sponsors Interface have always taken a stance that recognizes the huge challenge that climate change presents, and it's closely aligned with what Sarah and I describe as possibilism. Their first Mission Zero, put a focus on the possibility of creating carbon neutral products and factories that maximize the use of renewable energy. Their current climate takeback mission puts the focus on running a business in a way that reverses global warming with carbon negative products, and a view that their factories should behave more like forests by which they mean fully integrated into the broader web of life around.
Sarah Ichioka 32:57
The Flourish podcast is recorded at Cast Iron Studios in London and the Hive Lavender studios in Singapore. Our co producers are Kelly Hill in London and Shireen Marican in Singapore. Our research and production assistant is Yi Shien Sim. The podcast is edited and features brilliant original music by Tobias Withers.
Flourish Systems Change is brought to you by Interface
Production credits
Presenters Sarah Ichioka & Michael Pawlyn
Audio producer & composer Tobias Withers
Producers Kelly Hill (London) Shireen Marican (Singapore)
Research and production assistant Yi Shien Sim
Podcast cover art by Studio Folder
