Ep8: Activism & Enterprise with Sagarika Bhatta
“Here the ‘development’ is actually developing only roads; buildings with sufficient street lights; concretization is ‘development’ in our country. So this mindset needs to be changed here, not only in our country, most of the countries… in Asia, or also other parts.”
To round off the first season of the Flourish Systems Change podcast, we speak to Sagarika Bhatta, an environmental scientist, climate activist and social entrepreneur based in Kathmandu. We explore how cultivating female and youth leadership in climate action is necessary for a just transition; and discuss the disconnect between the realities of “developed” or “developing” economies in how they mitigate, adapt to and are impacted by the climate crisis.
Sagarika Bhatta is environmental scientist, climate activist and social entrepreneur based in Kathmandu. As Chairperson and Founder of activist NGOs, PowerShift Nepal and ERST-We Care Nepal, she encourages female leadership and agency building for climate justice. Her work, introducing urban rooftop agriculture to women in the increasingly urbanised Kathmandu Valley, was recognised by the DO School in Berlin, and awarded the Climate Action: Race to Zero Innovation Award 2021. Sagarika was runner up for the NASO Women in Science Award in 2020. She is both a former Climate Tracker 2016 Fellow, participant in the Asia Climate Leadership Camp 2019 and recipient of a Korean Green Grant.
Show notes
Sarah and Michael’s book, Flourish: Design Paradigms For Our Planetary Emergency is available at Triarchy Press, Book Depository, or your local library.
Powershift Nepal is a women-led non-profit organization based in Nepal that aims to fight climate change and environmental issues. Powershift’s mission is to nurture female leadership and lobby for climate justice through training, workshops, and conferences.
ERST-WeCareNepal is an environmental research service and training center established in 2016 to build environmentally sustainable communities and combat climate change.
Climate Action Race to Zero Innovation Award is presented by the DO Group, and the UK High-Level Champions for COP26, to young activists between the ages of 16 and 35. They support change-makers develop ideas on regenerating wild places, eating for the planet, traveling sustainably, and ‘rewriting our future’.
Gender Just Climate Solutions award, launched by the Women and Gender Constituency in 2015, identifies the most outstanding grassroots climate actions that have women leadership and promotes gender-equality.
Climate Tracker Award is an award presented by Climate Tracker (CT), an international non-profit organization, that supports young journalists working in the countries hardest hit by climate change. Offering training and resources to incentivise better climate journalism globally.
Asia Pacific Forum on Women Law and Development (APWLD) is a network of feminist organisations and activists in the Asia Pacific formally launched in 1986 in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. The organisation fosters feminist movements that influence laws, policies and practices at the local, national, regional and international levels.
View the latest IPCC report here.
Millennium Development Goals are 8 goals that UN Member States have agreed to try to achieve by the year 2015, derived from the United Nations Millennium Declaration that was signed in September 2000.
Doughnut Economics is a concept developed by University of Oxford economist Kate Raworth, which takes into account social planetary boundaries while meeting the needs of all living organisms on the planet. Check out the Flourish podcast’s interview with Kate Raworth here.
There are many studies on how exposure to the natural environment during early childhood fosters environmental conservation behaviour based on the biophilia hypothesis. See Olivos-Jara, Segura-Fernández, Rubio-Pérez, and Felipe-García’s research on biophilia and biophobia among 5 year old children here and Zhang, Goodale, and Chen’s study on children in China here among many others.
The Paris Climate Agreement is a legally binding agreement adopted by 192 countries in Paris in 2015, that covers climate change mitigation, adaptation and finance.
Greenovation by WWF is a green entrepreneurship accelerator that provides a platform to transform green entrepreneurship ideas into tangible enterprises. It was launched in 2016 and was held over a period of two months.
350.org is an international environmental organization that advocates for fast transition to 100% renewable energy, banning from fossil fuels, cutting off the social license and financing for fossil fuel companies.
Crystal Chissell is the Senior Director of Drawdown Communities by Project Drawdown and guides local, collective environmental movements. Listen to the Flourish podcast’s interview with Crystal Chissell here.
Interface's Fairworks initiative involved introducing a new line of products, a range of eco-friendly grass and bamboo woven floor tiles, sourced from artisanal weavers in India and became the foundation of the second pilot project to create a socially inclusive supply chain. Learn more about Interface’s climate change initiatives here.
Forum for the Future is a global sustainability non-profit that has operated for 25 years and specializes in addressing critical global challenges by enacting change in systems in sectors such as food to apparel, energy to shipping. Listen to the Flourish podcast’s interview with Forum for the Future’s Sumi Dhanarajan and Anna Biswas here.
Daniel Wahl, educator, biologist and the author of Designing Regenerative Cultures, was awarded the RSA Bicentenary Medal in 2021 for his outstanding contributions to the field of design.
Watch Sarah and Michael’s talk on The Forest School: Regenerative Design at Central Saint Martins here.
View Sarah and Michael’s talk on Design Paradigms for a Regenerative Future at the RSA here.
Donella Meadows was an American environmental scientist, educator, and writer best known as lead author of the books The Limits to Growth and Thinking In Systems: A Primer.
Jeremy Lent is an award-winning author and founder of the nonprofit Liology Institute, dedicated to fostering a worldview that could enable humanity to thrive sustainably on the earth. Listen to Flourish podcast’s interview with Jeremy Lent here.
James Ogude is the Director at the Centre for the Advancement of Scholarship, University of Pretoria and Director of the African Observatory for Environmental Humanities. Listen to Flourish podcast’s interview with James Ogude, here.
Roman Krznaric is a public philosopher who writes about the power of ideas to change society and is the author of The Good Ancestor: How to Think Long Term in a Short Term World. Listen to the Flourish podcast’s interview with Roman Krznaric here.
BedZed (2002) was the UK’s first major zero carbon community, an ecovillage comprising 100 homes, office space, a college and community facilities. It was built by the charity and social enterprise Bioregional which was founded in 1994 by Sue Riddlestone and Pooran Desai.
One Brighton was the first mixed-use development in the world to be designed and based on the One Planet Living framework by BioRegional, also involved in the construction of BedZed.
Transcript
Sarah Ichioka 00:02
Hello and welcome to the Flourish podcast where we discuss design for systems change. I'm Sarah Ichioka; an urbanist, strategist and director of Desire Lines based in Singapore. I'm delighted to co-present Flourish with Michael Pawlyn, who is the founder of Exploration Architecture, and a leading architect in regenerative design based in London.
Well, time has gone by so quickly. Time flies when you're having fun. Time also flies when you're working really hard! And we've come to our final episode of this series. In many of the recent episodes of this podcast, we've talked about big picture mindset shifts. In today's episode, we want to refocus on examples of action in the form of both activism and entrepreneurship.
Michael Pawlyn 01:20
Yes, so after we speak with today's guest, we'll be spending a few minutes together reflecting on how it's gone, what we've learned and what we might hope to do in the future. We're also aware that our previous guests have tended to be of mid-career age or later, so we were keen to ensure that we talk with an accomplished professional who's somewhat earlier in their career. The regenerative transformation is going to require a wide range of possibilists, not just deep thinkers, but also inspiring doers. And as Kate Raworth said, when we spoke to her earlier in this series, “I think 21st century economics is going to be practised first and theorised later, so it's time to hang out with the practitioners.”
Sarah Ichioka 02:05
Our guest today is Sagarika Bhatta. Sagarika is an Environment Science and Management postgraduate from Nepal and is also Chairperson and Founder of Powershift Nepal and ERST-WeCareNepal. She is a recent recipient of the Climate Action Race to Zero Innovation Award 2021 from the DO school in Berlin for her work on rooftop farming and a runner up for the NASO Women in Science award last year.
Michael Pawlyn 02:36
Sagarika was recently nominated for the Gender Just Climate Solutions award this year and is both a former Climate Tracker 2016 Fellow and participant in the Asia Climate Leadership Camp 2019. She also received the Korean Green Grant in 2014. We're delighted to have her on the podcast. Hello, Sagarika.
Sagarika Bhatta 02:58
Hello Sarah and hello, Michael.
Sarah Ichioka 03:00
Welcome to Flourish.
Sagarika Bhatta 03:01
Thank you so much.
Sarah Ichioka 03:02
So you have extensive experience working in the climate change sector and in 2019, you started your own organisation, Powershift Nepal, which aims to develop and equip young women with the skills to become environmental leaders. To start us off, could you please share: What does environmental leadership look like in the context of Kathmandu and why is it important for women in particular to become environmental leaders in your view?
Sagarika Bhatta 03:33
So within this 5 to 6 years what I've seen – not only in Kathmandu valley but overall, Nepal – is that there is more consciousness among youth and also other generations in environmental leadership and actions in this stage, but if we talk about you know, women or female leadership in environmental context, it is still lacking because the way our society perceives women and girls from their childhood, this actually suppresses their voices. But lately, because we are giving emphasis on gender equality and sustainable development goals, there are a lot of programs happening not only in Kathmandu valley but all-around in Nepal, so that has actually brought a little bit of change. All the work that our government or NGOs are conducting, they are actually integrating gender equality concept or gender-inclusive concept in their work. In these 5 to 6 years, I have seen increasing numbers of environmental leaders as well as women or young female leadership. But still there needs to be a lot of empowerment, and not only empowerment but motivation and capacity building among the women of our community and especially young females.
Sarah Ichioka 05:00
Thank you for sharing that. I was really intrigued by your “Womenifesto”. Could you share more with us about that and how do you use it as a guiding philosophy for Powershift's projects?
Sagarika Bhatta 05:14
Womenifesto is actually a movement led by APWLD (Asia Pacific Women’s Leadership and Development) and we are part of that. What PowerShift is doing, as a womanifesto movement, is that we are capacity building waste management workers of women of our field or ward, you know, in our local community. Because in our community, what happens is that those women who are actually working in the waste management sector are also underprivileged, and need a lot of support and knowledge regarding waste management, health, and also the environmental context. So what we're doing is we are capacity building them in terms of environmental rights, health rights and gender rights, so that they know what their rights are supposed to be and what they need to ask from our government or what they need to advocate in the coming days because they have to pick and segregate waste, and they face a lot of hazardous conditions which ultimately harms their health.
Michael Pawlyn 06:24
Sagarika, could you tell us more about the context that you're working in?
Sagarika Bhatta 06:28
Talking about Nepal, we are not that big a country, we are a very small country, but we are geographically diverse. We have mountains, hills, and the like, and the highest peaks of the world to the flatlands. So, in a very limited area, we can see diverse geographic landscapes. So, in this context, what we are facing is that we are already ranked fourth vulnerable in terms of climate disaster by the IPCC report. So, if we compare you know, other countries, other developed countries in Europe or countries like Japan or China, you know, Nepal only emits like 0.02% of carbon, you know, greenhouse gas emission, but what we are facing is extreme climate disasters and we are losing, you know, thousands of lives each year because of unpredicted climate disasters, such as floods, landslides, avalanches. And also you know, because our country is very dependent, most of the people in our country are very dependent on agriculture and the economic sources of those people are very dependent on agricultural products.
So, climate change has ultimately actually impacted those farmers, those farmers who sell their products or you know, climate change, climate crisis has actually hit our agriculture productivity so much that in this like, 5 to 10 years, we have actually seen so much of new diseases in agricultural lands, you know, and even our land are turning into drought. Water resources are drying out. So, there have been a lot of problems in mountain areas as well and there has been conflict between the communities because of the migration problem, due to climate change. Nepal itself has a lack of resources, technology or lack of adaptation capabilities compared to those developed countries, and we actually are suffering, why? We are not the ones who are responsible for the climate crisis.
Michael Pawlyn 08:47
That's brilliant, that's really clear, thank you. There are quite a lot of fairly committed architects and engineers who say they completely agree with the Millennium Development Goals, but then they kind of go into work and they work on very unsustainable projects, really. Is there anything else you could say to them to help them kind of appreciate that we do need this to be a just transition; climate justice really needs to be more widely recognised?
Sagarika Bhatta 09:17
Yes. Each year we gather in COP and all the leaders make big commitments there, but it's hardly been implemented. But we also know that at the conference and parties which is held each year - most of those are sponsored by the fossil fuel industries or the corporate houses who are actually most responsible for climate crisis in today's context so to them I'd like to tell that: I think it is now time for energy transition because we do not have much time. World scientists have already pointed out that within 2030, we'll be reaching 1.5 degrees at this rate. So reaching 1.5 degree celsius over pre-industrial levels – the average temperature is like a kind of threshold where you know everything is going to be extreme. The coastal areas are going to receive more frequency of cyclones and typhoons, and a country like ours is going to receive more avalanches and glacier lake outbursts or other flood related issues.
Sarah Ichioka 10:34
Thank you, Sagarika, for that. One of our earlier guests, Kate Raworth has made the point very powerfully in her book, Doughnut Economics that we should really all say that we are all developing countries because or developing economies because none of the richer world economies have it right either, right? If they're focusing purely on exploitation whether of polluting energy sources or indeed of populations in the rest of the world then we surely should not be calling ourselves developed either. I wanted to turn back to your work with your various organizations and businesses. I understand that your work is very much focused on improving the urban environment and addressing environmental degradation. Could you share with us and our listeners about some of the projects you're involved in or planning? And given that your projects are often initiated by civil society groups, how do those projects differ from projects that might be proposed by local or national governments?
Sagarika Bhatta 11:50
I've been involved in two different organizations – one is a not-for-profit organization named PowerShift Nepal and next, is a company named ERST. So for Powershift Nepal, we started in 2014. We were involved in climate justice movements from 2014 to 2018/2019, mostly from PowerShift Nepal. So we have empowered a lot of young females to lead in the climate justice movement from a local level so that female leaders are often seen in the forefront. So PowerShift Nepal aims to work on sustainable cities and communities. We aim to work on gender and climate change issues. We also work on mountain conservation, and we also look to empower economically with green skills to those underprivileged women who in our community are actually more vulnerable and are facing disparity due to less education, less economic status and so on.
And from the company Environmental Resource Service and Training center (ERST), what I'm doing is I'm currently providing rooftop farming services in Kathmandu Valley which is giving installation services and also installation consultation services in Kathmandu Valley to houses, organizations, or institutions who wish to have their own urban farm at their rooftops. So from here, I'm also exploring hydroponics and aeroponic technologies because we are already facing so much of water crisis, water problems and we know that we are going to face more; this concept will actually help the urban areas to be more efficient. I have been, you know, selling sustainable bags which are made from cotton fabrics, and also looking forward to using bamboo and rice husks to make bags and empower local women in making those. I have been always fascinated by sustainable fashion concepts as we already know that fashion industry actually is one of the most polluting and emits like 20% percent of the greenhouse gasses. So I've been thinking about how I can bring this concept in our community, in our area so I’ve also been involved in thrifting activities from my company.
Talking about Powershift Nepal, I forgot to mention, we actually have a major campaign, we have been campaigning since 2014. We campaign on fossil fuel free urban spaces with our government and promoting more electric vehicles, cycling, and walking concepts. So, what we have seen from 2014 to now is, we have seen very much differences in how our government has perceived this concept because of the Paris agreement or NDC, or enhanced NDC, that our government has given. We have seen that the plans since then are now very much in favour of, you know, moving towards energy transition, moving towards alternative energy in transportation. And our government is also trying to support this, which is a very positive side that we have seen since 2014 to now.
Michael Pawlyn 15:40
I'd love to hear a bit more about your entrepreneurship because I'm always impressed with people that manage to combine activism and being an entrepreneur. What was it that prompted you to make that shift? And do you still try and keep a balance between the two? Are you shifting more towards being an entrepreneur now?
Sagarika Bhatta 15:58
My entrepreneurship journey actually started in 2016, when I participated in a startup called Greenovation by WWF. And I was very unknown to the idea of how, you know, how we can actually develop a concept into a profitable idea, as well as how we can actually help our community or environment to be more sustainable.
Michael Pawlyn 16:25
One of the things that Sarah and I have written about in our book Flourish is that we need a complete shift of mindset towards a regenerative mindset where we aim to to actually have a net positive impact and fix some of the damage that's been caused. Is that something that you talk to your clients about? And is that a focus of your activism as well?
Sagarika Bhatta 16:52
Yes, definitely. We actually focus on regenerative methods, mainly on agricultural practices, as well as leadership. Me, personally, I have seen while living in Kathmandu, and then travelling in different parts of Nepal, is that what we are living in Kathmandu, how we are living in Kathmandu is so unsustainable and so, you know, it's like such an unsustainable living that we are not going to self-sustain in coming days, but what we had, you know, our older generations, their traditional method, and their indigenous method of, you know, whether it be recharging water resources, or agricultural management, or even permaculture, everything has so much of value and everything is so self-sustaining. Our culture itself has given so much knowledge in every part, everything in the agriculture sector; in the water sector; our culture is so rich that it actually follows regenerative methods in every way. But like I said, as we are moving forward, we are forgetting those and we are moving towards the way that is so unsustainable, even in the urban area.
Sarah Ichioka 18:12
I'm so glad Sagarika that you've raised that very important observation that so much of the knowledge that we need can be found from looking to the past and looking at indigenous and traditional wisdom and practices. And I find it so heartening to hear so many permaculture practitioners in the global north now actively acknowledging that debt. I wondered if we could turn to talking about generational differences in a slightly shorter time span. Michael and I noticed that most of your team members seem to be in their 20s and 30s and I wondered if you had noticed any generational differences when you go about educating or engaging people about activism and social entrepreneurship. You know, for example, how does your messaging shift? Or how do your project objectives shift, when you're partnering those who might be in their 40s or 50s or older, maybe in contrast to your peers and younger people?
Sagarika Bhatta 19:22
It's really very hard for our generation to actually convince the elder generation in every term. But what we have been doing is that in our community, because we are focused on women, it's easier to have conversations and build rapport. But what we're focusing on is that from our generations, we focus more on building a front for leadership, giving them more capacity building them on public speaking leadership.
Michael Pawlyn 19:55
I wonder if there are any particular indigenous or ancient ideas that you're excited about kind of reintroducing?
Sagarika Bhatta 20:04
Yes, yes, yes, definitely. We are already facing so much water crisis that is actually harming our agriculture processes in our country. We actually have our traditional method of water recharge system that you can find while visiting Kathmandu, our heritage sites. You will find a pond and a well nearby, and that pond actually recharges [the] well where people used to gather water in previous days. In Nepal, the Monsoon season is solely responsible for all the groundwater that we use throughout the year so it would have been enough. This is one of our oldest methods that we can actually relearn and then again, restructure and implement in our country. First is that.
Secondly, in agriculture and pest management, we have so many methods of making bio-pesticide that we can learn from our indigenous and traditional methods. For example, do you know neem? So in our country, in our communities, previously people used to use even ashes, neem, oil, and also a liquid made from onions and mix those. Also cow urine and mix those and then make bio-pesticides and spraying the farmland. But lately, our government itself has introduced so many other chemical fertilisers and chemicals, and this has ultimately changed all the environment and ecology and ecosystem, and it has harshly harmed [them]. So in the current context, it is really very hard to change but I believe that our traditional methods are more useful and better for regenerative practices.
Sarah Ichioka 22:08
Sagarika, I am in awe of the huge range of things that you do. And one of the mindset shifts that Michael and I advocate for in our book Flourish is a move towards a possibilist mindset that looks for ways that we as individuals or groups can positively intervene to expand our own agency and addressing regenerative transformation of our communities. So I wondered if you had any advice to share with listeners who might be interested in advocating for their own communities or becoming social entrepreneurs, based on anything you've learned from your work so far?
Sagarika Bhatta 23:02
I think it's very challenging to work on our own ideas. So, but what satisfies is that what we have thought in our mind, or what we have imagined to make a change and which then, after some years, we are actually visibly seeing those changes.
Sarah Ichioka 23:23
What sort of mindsets do you think that people need to learn in order to become effective change agents?
Sagarika Bhatta 23:34
Since very small, I was actually very keenly interested, was keenly inclined to, you know, towards animals, plants, trees. So I think those things actually develop since my childhood. Slowly, when I grew up, I saw a lot of changes in these things like, I saw a lot of degradation, I saw a lot of, you know, pollution, I saw a lot of mismanagement, harsh environment to those animals, or plants, or even agricultural land. I think this is the thing that has actually made me work in this sector, as well as it deeply links me to the issue, because I've seen what actually made me feel so good. The thing that used to make me feel really good in my childhood, has today actually changed into a very, very unpleasant environment.
Sarah Ichioka 24:33
That's so interesting that you raise that because studies have shown that the extent to which we have interactions with the rest of the natural environment, as children, can have profound effects on the degree to which we take action in our own lives, either individually or politically, to try to protect or restore it later.
Michael Pawlyn 25:00
And building on Sarah's question there, I wonder if there are particular mindsets that are prevalent at the moment that you think urgently need to be rethought?
Sagarika Bhatta 25:09
Yeah, in our current context, I'll say the word “development” – because this mindset here needs to be changed. Because, you know, here [in Nepal] the “development” is actually developing only roads; buildings with sufficient street lights; concretization is “development” in our country. So this mindset needs to be changed here, not only in our country, most of the countries I'd say in Asia, or also other parts of the countries maybe.
Michael Pawlyn 25:43
Thank you for that, you know, looking back over the last 10 years for you, what are the successes personally or for the environmental movement more generally?
Sagarika Bhatta 25:53
Personally, I think that I've grown so much, because I was really a very shy person. I used to hesitate to put my words forward, but this journey has actually led me to build my own leadership and as well as build others’ leadership. 10 years ago, I was studying and slowly my journey began in the environmental field, especially on climate change and slowly I've been recognised a lot by not only at national level, but also our international level. So I think this has been a huge achievement for me to be recognised not only as a person, individual, but for the work that I have carried out throughout these years for PowerShift Nepal and I think this achievement is actually motivates me more to believe that the work that I've been doing is actually good, and I need to continue this.
Sarah Ichioka 26:53
Thanks. And given your involvement with those regional and global climate action movements such as 350.org Asia, which is how we were first introduced to your work, how can you tell us more about how you may have been shaped or contributed to the work of other environmental activists and movements outside of Nepal?
Sagarika Bhatta 27:17
350.org has helped us very much to, you know, not only understand the whole climate justice movement, but 350 has also supported us in a lot of ways to build ourselves to network, to partner, and always there to, you know, support on what activities we do in terms of the climate justice movement. So I believe that it has helped us recognise ourselves and work in our country, but 350 has actually globally helped us to make our leadership, you know, there are very few youth who have actually been recognised or recognised by the international community. But 350 has actually changed this status, and helped us to actually be recognised by our friends and communities from outside the country. So I think it has really helped us to shape our organisation as well as shape our activities, our mission, our vision too, and also get support and then also I would say that we have also added to the international climate justice movement being one of the most vulnerable countries and putting our voice forward.
Sarah Ichioka 28:43
How can our listeners find out more or connect with your and PowerShift Nepal’s work?
Sagarika Bhatta 28:48
You can visit our Facebook page, and also our website, www.powershiftnepal.org
Sarah Ichioka 28:57
Again, I'm so impressed with the breadth of the work that you do. And Michael and I really appreciate you taking the time to join us on the Flourish podcast.
Michael Pawlyn 29:09
Thank you so much, Sagarika.
Sarah Ichioka 29:15
When I meet someone like Sagarika, it always makes me feel… It gives me less patience with those in my acquaintance who are constantly insisting that things might be out of scope or not under their job description, or who might complain that they feel that they really don't know how they can make a difference.
Michael Pawlyn 29:40
Yeah, I know what you mean, I mean, without mentioning names, in our book, we refer to one or two very senior members of the architecture community, who have said some things that represent a massive denial of their agency. And when you meet someone like Sagarika, who's done so much, and I think she's only around 30 years old, is that right? It's pretty awesome.
Sarah Ichioka 30:05
Absolutely. And that I get the sense that her assumption is just that, of course, you take action, you know, of course you direct your professional endeavours to address the challenges of your community. It's just the right thing to do. And exploring different avenues as well, the flexibility of shifting between activist work and entrepreneurship, I thought was also inspiring.
Michael Pawlyn 30:29
And it seems like she doesn't allow herself to be ground down, you just keep steaming ahead.
Sarah Ichioka 30:34
Honestly, one of the things that I was reflecting on for the whole duration of the conversation was really the disconnect between the realities of the developed world and the developing world or, you know, I think, Michael, you might have used the term “the wealthy world” or the, you know, “the rich world”, or we can talk about “the West”, or we can talk about the “global south” and the “global north”. I find that those categories can feel very limiting, as many theorists have pointed out, but at the same time, it is really important to acknowledge when there are huge differences in terms of privilege and protection from some of the harshest impacts of the climate crisis. One of the other things that I was thinking, Michael, as we were talking to Sagarika was, how some of the issues in the work that she's doing relate back to some of our earlier podcasts interviewees from this season. You know, I thought about, for example, how Crystal Chisell from Project Drawdown and Drawdown Communities shared with us about how important it is to invest in women and girls as a holistic climate solution globally. Did anything strike you?
Michael Pawlyn 31:58
Yeah, that was a good link and also, Sagarika talked about how important her childhood had been in terms of a connection with nature, which picks up on on some of the things that Jeremy Lent was saying about just how our relationship with the rest of the living world, how important that is in determining the way we act throughout the rest of our lives in many ways.
Sarah Ichioka 32:23
Absolutely. And then also, I think it also brought me back to to what one of our very first guests, Kate Raworth, talked about in terms of needing to rethink our economy so that it also incorporates the unit of the household, right when Sagarika was talking about the importance of women in society as managers of the household, in addition to doing market-based work.
Michael Pawlyn 32:50
As you mentioned, Sarah, Kate has talked very persuasively about how we're all developing countries and it was interesting what Sagarika was saying about the word “develop” or “development” and how it can mean very different things in different parts of the world. Empowering communities and cultivating local entrepreneurs is also something that our podcast sponsor Interface has explored. Back in 2004, they had a pilot project called Fairworks that looked at creating regenerative benefits through localised manufacturing of modular grass woven mats in Tamil Nadu, India. The products used locally sourced wild river grasses that were harvested twice a year. In addition to new skills and income, the weavers were offered micro loans and empowered to become independent entrepreneurs. At its peak, 300 people were employed to create these mats. This experience formed the basis of their Networks project, creating an inclusive supply chain for discarded nylon fishing nets.
Sarah Ichioka 33:53
What an inspiring project. And it's been so wonderful to have Interface's support to make this podcast possible, all eight episodes of it. And here we are; we've come to the end of our run. How are you feeling about it, Michael?
Michael Pawlyn 34:10
Well, it's been fantastic talking to all these people doing inspiring things, and really shifting the discussion on I think, from sustainable to regenerative. And I think that's what we said in our introduction and of course, that is the basis of our book. And so maybe it's worth just reflecting a bit on how much things have shifted. You know, just in the last six months, I've noticed that more and more people and organisations are talking about regenerative design and development. So for instance, Forum for the Future, you know, that the whole focus of their mission now is on regenerative development. The Royal Society of Arts in London, they have a really ambitious programme now about regenerative futures, and they awarded their bicentenary medal to Daniel Wahl, for his work on regenerative cultures. And then, I've also noticed quite a few schools of architecture, implementing new courses in regenerative design. So, you know, it's actually looking quite exciting how quickly the pace of this shift seems to be picking up.
Sarah Ichioka 35:20
It is exciting, and I feel so lucky that you and I have been able to engage directly with some of those conversations. We got to speak at Central Saint Martins with their new Forest School programme. Similarly, you know, that we were invited to speak at the RSA as part of their regenerative futures programme, and that we had Sumi and Anna from Forum as previous podcast guests. So it's so nice to feel those aspects braiding together in conversation.
Michael Pawlyn 35:50
And the great thing about this shift, and this supports Donella Meadows’ ideas, is that it's very likely that certain things, for instance, the whole idea that less bad is okay. Certain things that were regarded as acceptable within the sustainability paradigm will rapidly look out of date and unacceptable.
Sarah Ichioka 36:08
We can certainly hope, can't we? Michael, do you think that it's worth reviewing our theory of change for Flourish and how some of our past guests have contributed to enriching our thinking about that theory of change?
Michael Pawlyn 36:27
I do, actually. Because I still feel that there isn't enough of a discussion in the built environment about how change actually happens. You know, there's this kind of slightly forlorn feeling that if we just keep going at zero carbon, we'll get there in the end, without perhaps realising unless that’s part of a broader systemic discussion, it could even displace problems into other areas.
Sarah Ichioka 36:56
Sumi and Anna from Forum the Future called that out very clearly in their discussion about the transition of food systems and transition of sustainable energy systems too. I thought, just going back to first principles, it would be helpful, you know, revisiting some of the things we discuss in the book and we discussed together in our first episode is just saying that fundamentally, at first, we need to accept with really open eyes the degree of change that is necessary. And then, we need to, in a Meadowsian way, identify and debunk and reject these past degenerative mindsets that have been so harmful. And then think about the most effective points to intervene at a paradigm level or the power to transcend paradigms. And, of course, the wonderful Jeremy Lent, who you spoke to on one of our previous podcasts, has written so clearly about how our cognitive frames shape our behaviour and culture. So that means in our theory of change that we need to imagine, develop, and embrace these new mindsets, or these recovered mindsets or knowledge as our guest, James Ogude reminded us, that put care for all life at the centre of everything that we do. And we've articulated five of these key mindsets in Flourish and been able to touch on them in several of our past episodes. After that, we need to maximise our own personal agency, which means finding new purpose for our work and our life and taking positive action to realise these mindsets. But you know, when we spoke with Roman Krznaric, he was a little bit skeptical about the limits of agency, as I recall, you know, he reminded us that our power now is the numbers. So finally, we're arguing that we need to join together with others in diverse coalitions to build regenerative communities and systems that benefit the majority of life on Earth.
Michael Pawlyn 38:58
We've talked in Flourish, about how individual agency is going to be far more successful if it becomes a group agency. And if you're part of an organisation, you're going to achieve a lot more if you can transform that organisation. If you're at a senior level within an organisation, you could look to transforming, say, your institution that you're part of, or even try to transform the broader industry. And what we hope to see is this kind of rolling wave up to international levels. I'm still not convinced that it is happening at a broad enough level. Certainly some other really kind of wealthy tech companies are doing a lot now. But it's only really on zero carbon. It's not a broader transformation. And I don't yet see the transformation picking up anywhere near enough pace within the construction industry. I still think we're kind of behind where we were, say 15 years ago, when in the UK, there were two schemes built there was BedZed, the Beddington Zero Energy Development and shortly after that Brighton One, both of those were designed to a One Planet Living footprint. And there are very few schemes that have been built since then that have achieved that same level of designing within planetary boundaries.
Sarah Ichioka 40:16
But so how does that sit with your earlier reflection about feeling like we might be part of, you know, of a transformative movement? I personally am really interested. I think it's been a major focus of this project to try to identify and amplify those positive examples because I think as Crystal Chissell from Project Drawdown said, you know, there's only so much we can be motivated by our kind of despair at what's not being done. And I think that there's a really important role to be played within the greater conversation about putting the focus on what has to come next, rather than spending too much time on all the things that are currently going wrong.
Michael Pawlyn 41:02
Well, I guess what I'm saying is, I think it's dangerous to assume that everything is now underway. I think the shift from sustainable to regenerative ways of thinking, that is underway, and I hope that will really gather pace and start to deliver the degree of change that we need. But just companies having zero carbon plans is nowhere near enough. And it feels as though that's where we were at with COP 26. But you and I have argued in our book that we need a much deeper transformation than that.
Sarah Ichioka 41:40
And it's really heartening that, that great thinkers, like Kate Raworth, great strategist, like Forum for the Future are pushing so hard, you know, to maximise their own agency or their organization's own collective agency to make that change, happen, etc, that the Doughnut Economics Action Lab right is just launching all of these new pilots and initiative, their team is growing and flourishing. Similarly, with Forum, I think that more people are joining their programmes and working with them. Although it's really important not to be naive about the scale of the challenge, I think I personally have come away from the work of co-writing this book together and co-hosting this series, I've come away with a feeling of renewed potential for the necessary transformation.
Michael Pawlyn 42:32
This is an opportunity to rethink what it means to be human and to bring about a kind of transformation of human consciousness that we need. And I do think it's important that we, you know, we think about the way that mindsets shape, often unconsciously, the form of the built environment and the kind of choices we make about how we shape our cities. And as we've argued in our chapter, about Symbiogenesis, there really is an opportunity here to create a much better quality of life. So it's not just about reducing things, it's about improving and creating a better future.
Sarah Ichioka 43:10
So just having this reflection session, Michael makes me realise how many more conversations we could have. And I certainly know that there are so many other voices, thinkers, doers, that I would really love to be able to engage in the conversation and learn from. So the question arising in my mind is: Should we do another season?
Michael Pawlyn 43:39
Well, you know what, I've tried to fit this one in around all my other sort of project commitments without realising that it takes hundreds of hours’ work to do it.
Sarah Ichioka 43:49
I know. We were so naive.
Michael Pawlyn 43:53
So anyway, if you've enjoyed this series, and would like to see us make another season of Flourish Systems Change. Please support us by subscribing. If you feel inclined, we'd love to have a five star rating. And please do share it with friends and colleagues who you think would enjoy what we've been talking about.
Sarah Ichioka 44:11
If you're interested to learn more about principles of regenerative design, or any of the many fascinating topics that we've been discussing together today, you're warmly invited to visit our website, which is simply flourish-book.com. That website will also include links to all of our socials. The podcast is sponsored by interface, and based on the book Flourish: Design Paradigms for Our Planetary Emergency by Sarah Ichioka and Michael Pawlyn. The Flourish podcast is recorded at Cast Iron Studios in London and the Hive Lavender studios in Singapore. Our co producers are Kelly Hill in London and Shireen Marican in Singapore. Our research and production assistant is Yi Shien Sim. The podcast is edited and features brilliant original music by Tobias Withers.
Presenters Sarah Ichioka and Michael Pawlyn
Audio producer and composer Tobias Withers
Producers Kelly Hill (London) and Shireen Marican (Singapore)
Researcher and production assistant Yi Shien Sim
Podcast cover art by Studio Folder
Special thanks to Sakuko Sugawara and Shibayan Raha
